Wikia

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DarkLantern

Admin
18,394 Edits since joining this wiki
July 19, 2008

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I went to the Dwarves page and found that it was all erased and was wondering why. can please fix it

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Dwarves

108.221.234.233 00:14, November 22, 2013 (UTC)Anonumus 

ZirakzigilEdit

Currently, Zirakzigil redirects to Zirak-zigil. But since Tolkien spelled it Zirakzigil in the text, it should be the other way round. I think only an administrator can fix this. - Gradivus, 03:22, November 22, 2013 (UTC)

Army of the Dead Edit

Hey Darklantern.  Belac Reteet here.  I just wanted to ask why you're undoing my adition of Army of the Dead to the Hill-men category.  It's just that you haven't explained your reasons.  I, for my part, am categorizing them as such because they used to be a tribe of Hill-men (like DunlendingsMountain menEttenmoorians, and Men of Bree).  So if you could contact me on that, I would really appreciate it.  Catch ya later!belacreteet (talk) 17:57, November 26, 2013 (UTC)  

Well, I'm glad we established the Hil-man affair.  

PS I categorized the Army of the Dead as a race due to the fact that they are the only known examples of Ghosts (see Undead).belacreteet (talk) 18:09, November 26, 2013 (UTC) 

Spam?Edit

Has Wikia really "teamed up with Loot Crate to run a cool Giveaway" or is this a SPAM page that shouldn't be here? http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Bchwood/Loot_Crate_Giveaway

Manual-of-Style / Layout Guide Edit

Hey, DL, it's been a while since we've last spoken. I wanted to ask you if I could formulate a draft for a Manual-of-style and/or Layout Guide and after, when corrected and undervised by the necessary admins, proposing it as a permanent style for the Wiki. This idea has appeared since, as you may know, each of us big contributors do things with our own style without any strict rules and although our ideas of "article structures" are by now similar, we still have nothing official to tell us which is the right away and what would be the better structure for an article of the Wiki. I really think a MoS and/or LG are a necessary backbone for every Wiki with our size or more, so wether it's my proposal or someone else's, I think we need it. Winterz (talk) 02:11, December 10, 2013 (UTC)

  • Alright, I've started it up, in case you want to check it out how it's going so far, go ahead (the link is above). Winterz (talk) 03:59, December 10, 2013 (UTC)

Serial vandalsEdit

64.113.191.46 is a serial vandal and should be blocked.
Do you think I should take on admin duties so I can handle this sort of thing on my own? This happens a lot. - Gradivus, 17:12, December 12, 2013 (UTC)

Vandalism removal Edit

Hello DarkLantern, I recently reverted some vandalism and blocked two IPs for a couple of hours since they wouldn't go away - please extend or modify the blocks if you want to. There is also a user account, 601121 that uploaded an image and vandalized a page. I reverted the vandalism and temporarily blocked the IP, but didn't do anything with the account or the image (found here), because I'm not sure what the policies are for that sort of thing. Please let me know if you'd prefer that I not temporarily block IPs like I did in the future. Thanks, Ajraddatz (Talk) 20:40, December 15, 2013 (UTC)

VandalismEdit

70.69.224.54 has been removing content from articles. It would better to have him blocked to prevent further vandalism. Thanks.    Darkchylde   Talk      16:32, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

  • On a note related to this, could I suggest that the article Smaug became a protected page? It's been victim to tons of annon vandalisms so the protected pages system ought to solve that. Thanks. Winterz (talk) 16:42, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
  • I concur. The protection could only block the unregistered users and allow the registered ones to continue editing.    Darkchylde   Talk      16:56, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

User:Erik the Viking and 70.69.224.54 are removing content from Elrond's page and adding nonsense. The IP user is the same person I reported before. Perhaps he should be blocked by now? I'll leave the judgment to you.    Darkchylde   Talk      15:54, December 19, 2013 (UTC)

Agreed - with the above, except I don't know the facts about User:Erik the Viking. If you're talking about the Elrond page, it looks like he was just trying to reverse the damage that 70.69.224.54 did. - Gradivus, 16:33, December 19, 2013 (UTC)

Edit WarringEdit

I'm having a problem with User:Lord Glorfindel of the Firstborn. He continues to reinsert edits that he made after I took them out. I asked him to take the discussion to the Talk page, and I left him an explanation on his Talk page of why I did what I did, explaining about edit warring and asked him to discuss the issue rather than continuing to undo my changes over and over. I received no reply, and he continues to reverse my edits. - Gradivus, 22:32, December 19, 2013 (UTC)

Check his post on my talk page; it's getting nasty. I think I'd like some Bureaucrat/Admin intervention here, please. - Gradivus, 15:18, December 20, 2013 (UTC)

  • I would appreciate some Admin intervention here. If my reply seemed brash I apologize. I am offended that a new user cannot contribute without the consent of a self proclaimed admin. Is this not a community? Is there no room for any knowledge not deemed appropriate by another user? I feel bullied by Gradivus and have no issues with him other than that. I would like to contribute and do not feel I should have to run things by another contributer. If he disagreed with a contribution I feel the appropriate way to do so is discuss it on the subject matter's Talk page. He did not however. He simply deleted it and essentially told me to keep my mouth shut. I do not want a problem. I just want to contribute. Thank you! Lord Glorfindel of the Firstborn (talk) 15:41, December 20, 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for intervening, DarkLantern. However, I'm disturbed that you chose to represent my request as a demand that you address it. I did not demand anything. - Gradivus, 17:28, December 20, 2013 (UTC)
  • I apologize for any exacerbation of the situation that may have been caused by my reverting the edits more than once. I was trying to follow the general rules for doing such things, but after examining both the policies here and the Wikipedia "simple rules" I have adjusted my thinking in the way I will handle such situations in future, either changing the edits and explaining why or (if the original poster reverts back to his offending edit) leaving it and going immediately to the users' Talk page to discuss it if the user has registered. Obviously, that's harder to do if it's an unregistered user, in which case I may try an additional time along with an explanation. However, it would be great if the "official" procedures for this type of situation were listed on a wiki page with greater specificity. - Gradivus, 17:29, December 22, 2013 (UTC)

One more vandalEdit

Hey DL, I just wanted to report that there's this guy 68.98.8.97 that has been going through large pages and adding Wikipedia's article of all related contents in fictional existence. So far, I've undo-ed most of his damage, but the guy keeps on trying. Could you take a look? Thanks. Winterz (talk) 01:07, December 20, 2013 (UTC)

Current policiesEdit

I suggest Rule number 4 in the "Current policies" section be rewritten in standard English, because it doesn't quite make sense right now. I've written below what I think the rule is supposed to mean, although I'm not quite sure what the meaning of "or in many cases the person, place, or object's name in English first Tolkien Mythology wiki" is supposed to be. That link goes to a page that is certainly not an exhaustive index of person, place, and object names. Instead my suggested possible version of the rule, below, follows what was written by Wyvern Rex and you on the Naming standards page, where he writes, "the name used for the character or place is the name used by most often by Tolkien himself," and the subsequent decision by you (I believe this is what you're saying) to use the English version used by Tolkien when that is what is commonly used by readers when discussing the works of Tolkien.

4. Try to always use the most popular or recognized names first for the name of a person, place, or object. This will usually be the English word usually used by Tolkien. For example, use Blue Mountains over Ered Luin, Laketown over Esgaroth, Rhovanion over Wilderland, Gollum over Sméagol, and Moria over Khazad-dûm or Mines of Moria. (See also: Forum:Naming standards)

- Gradivus, 17:44, December 22, 2013 (UTC)

Narrative tenseEdit

When writing about legends, myths, etc. based on classic texts, e.g. (canon) Tolkien mythology based on Tolkien's writings, I generally use past tense ("the Elves settled in the Grey Havens," etc.) However, the convention when writing narratives and plot line discussions of storylines from works of fiction, present tense is usually used ("In the film The Titanic, Rose Bukater is a first-class passenger engaged to socialite Cal Hockley"; … "Rose and Jack climb to the stern of the Titanic as the bow sinks deeper"). I've tried to keep to that convention (past tense for Tolkien mythology; present tense for character descriptions and plot narratives in movies). But I see in last night's edit to Betsy Butterbur you changed the narrative and (non-canon) character info to past tense. Is that what you want me to do as well? ` Gradivus, 15:39, December 27, 2013 (UTC)

Hello! I saw Hobbit Personality Quiz! Would u mind if u also tell us how did u did it? Actually me and my friend liked it a lot! You would'nt mind if u tell us how did u did that? I also want to put on a certain wiki.Plz tell me how did u do that :) File:Sylveon XY.gif♪June♪♪True friends Stick Toghether♪File:Sylveon XY.gif 12:28, December 31, 2013 (UTC)


That wiki actually does'nt belongs to me! My friend and I decided to promote that wiki with some unusaul things not seen much! Like that quiz.......sorry if I sounded weird :( File:Sylveon XY.gif♪June♪♪True friends Stick Toghether♪File:Sylveon XY.gif 12:41, December 31, 2013 (UTC)

AdminshipEdit

It sounds great. Thank you for the support. I will do my best and work hard to elevate our wiki as much as I can. I'll be scanning the forums soon and see if there is something I can help with.  Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 16:43, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

VandalEdit

TemplatesEdit

Yes, of course. Thank you! And I aplogize for putting the High Elf template instead of a regular elf template.   Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 12:28, January 2, 2014 (UTC)

The "Template:" in the beginning of the infoboxes are kind of automatic. And yes, I will keep that in mind. Thank you.  Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 10:37, January 3, 2014 (UTC)

Family treeEdit

So I was playing around with templates and some things and I eventually made this:

   
   
   
   
Finwë
   
   
Indis
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
Findis
   
   
Fingolfin
   
   
Irimë
   
   
Finarfin
   
   
Eärwen
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
Fingon
   
   
Turgon
   
   
Elenwë
   
   
Aredhel
   
   
Eöl
   
   
Argon
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
Gil-galad
   
   
   
   
   
   
Idril
   
   
Tuor
   
   
Maeglin
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
Eärendil
   
   
Elwing
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
Elrond
   
   
Elros


It took me an hour to finish and I thought it would look good in our articles. I'll wait for your approval for this family tree format. Thanks! Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 14:13, January 3, 2014 (UTC)

Thank youEdit

Thank you very much for the opportunity. I am grateful for everyone's support. And thanks also for approving the family tree. I'll start working right away.  Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 15:04, January 3, 2014 (UTC)

Speedy DeletionEdit

Hi DarkLantern,

I have useless blog pages that I don't want, I was wondering could you delete them?

Thanks, Keelan717 Talk | My Templates 16:59, January 3, 2014 (UTC)

Edit: I mean all blog pages, thanks.

Merge? Edit

What do you think of merging these wikis to lotr.wikia.com? --Article editor (talk · contribs) 03:45, January 4, 2014 (UTC)

Gallery placementEdit

These "Galleries" take up a lot of space and it's cumbersome to have to scroll down to see the references. I think at least the References section should go before the Gallery; perhaps the Gallery should go at the very end after all the sections. - Gradivus, 02:04, January 6, 2014 (UTC)

I didn't say removing; I'm suggesting moving the References above the Gallery so they can be seen near the text areas being cited. - Gradivus, 13:43, January 6, 2014 (UTC)

I thought WE were big Edit

Say how is it that Tolkien Gateway has 3,000 more articles than this Wiki does? That's both funny and odd. Also means I'll have work to do, haha.  HiddenVale - HV logo MyTalkPage


Of course this isn't Tolkien Gateway. What I meant was: as T.Gateway an equivalent [internet source] to the Lord of the Rings Wiki (or rather the "Makings-of-Tolkien Wiki"), and yet has 3,000 more articles, and their topic is no different...that means we have a ways to go. So thats my #1 task right now, expansion - mostly, as you're able to see, stuff from the History of Middle-earth.

HiddenVale - HV logo MyTalkPage

CapitalizationEdit

I just saw what you did in editing Tauriel, and I'd like to discuss the issue of capitalization with you, since you have apparently capitalized every instance of hobbit, elf, and orc. I believe this is a mistake. I don't have the exact quotation right now (I'll try to get it for you), but Tolkien was explicit that these words should be capitalized only when referring to the respective race, not when talking about individuals. For example, he would write "they saw three orcs" – never "they saw three Orcs." If there is any doubt, just look at the text by Tolkien himself. Take a look at The Hobbit: "Down the dwarves scrambled" … "The dwarves huddled together" … "If the elf-king had a weakness it was for treasure" … "A number of elves came laughing and talking into the cellars…" – and so on. The only time Tolkien would capitalize these was when referring to the race, e.g., "They differed from the High Elves of the West" … "The feasting people were Wood-elves, of course." And even then, as you see, only the first part of a hyphenated word is capitalized. He would also capitalize when it was part of a title, like "the Elvenking." But (for example), the descriptive term elf-king was not capitalized. So... mind if we change those back? - Gradivus, 03:26, January 7, 2014 (UTC)

First there was a vandal there. In this instance, I was acting on an suggestion from User:Winterz/Draft that I was interrupting. I have just thumbed through The Hobbit myself as you suggested and looking at the words and grammar it appears you right, so I agree.--DarkLantern (talk) 03:43, January 7, 2014 (UTC)
If you've watched the recent changes, I've begun changing the references how does it look?--DarkLantern (talk) 03:43, January 7, 2014 (UTC)
Looks pretty good. - Gradivus, 04:44, January 7, 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for help with DisEdit

My "rollback" didn't get all the way back to where I wanted and left it with a bad intermediate version, and I was having Internet problems this morning and could not get back into the source editor to fix it. - Gradivus, 17:58, January 7, 2014 (UTC)

Policy IndexEdit

Hey, DarkLantern. I have seen your discussion with Gradivus regarding the references format and others. I made another template (see here: Policy Index), this time, a policy index for our rules. It has the wiki's current policies, including the forums Articles to be merged and Articles for deletion which needs participation from other users. I made a draft and the contents are still pending. I already added Gradivus' recent Citations for References. If you approve of this, you can also suggest if you want to add another policy. I am considering of adding Winterz's Manual of Style since most of us use it. If Winterz allows this, of course.

Again, this is just another proposal. We can put this policy index on the community messages so everyone can see it immediately. Tell me if you think I am overstepping my boundary as an admin. The final decision should still come from you. Thank you.  Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 05:14, January 8, 2014 (UTC)

Background ColorsEdit

Hi there! I hope you don't mind, but I fixed the color in the background image. The middle color was showing as white, which was causing a split in the background that didn't look so great. I changed the color so that it blends more nicely. Hope you don't mind. Please let me know if you have any concerns about my change. Michael@Wikia(profile)•(talk) 20:58, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

Volume numbers in citations for The History of Middle-earthEdit

I saw your note about whether to use Roman or Arabic numerals for the volumes of The History of Middle-earth. Here are my thoughts on that. First of all, to what "proof" are you referring? Do you mean the cover art? That's not really dispositive. The publisher of one edition (Houghton Mifflin, the publisher of the volumes most commonly found in bookstores) uses Roman numerals to mark the volume, but another publisher used Arabic, for instance see this cover picture.

Vol7

History of Middle-earth, Vol. 7 (cover)

Another publisher (Del-Ray, also currently found in bookstores) also uses Arabic numerals to mark the volumes. And of course, Tolkien himself had no part in the decision since the stories were collected into volumes by his son Christopher, and I know of no reason to think he desired one over the other (since some editions use Vols. 1-13 and some use Vols. I-XIII). It is because of that, that I think we are able to choose which when we want to use, and the reason I thought we should use Arabic numerals is that we have been consistently using Roman numerals for chapter numbers or internal sections, and spelled-out numbers for parts within a volume. So for clarity and to differentiate, I think it would cause less confusion and better style to use Arabic numbers for the volumes within this particular set of volumes (History of Middle-earth). Of course, if you have something more definite than cover art to go by, for instance text within one or more of the volumes in which C. Tolkien refers to different volumes specifically one way or the other, that could be good evidence to go by. - Gradivus, 02:12, January 10, 2014 (UTC) Vol123

Here, for instance, is the first edition of those The History of Middle-earth books, and they used Arabic numerals then. - Gradivus, 02:27, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

  • To answer your question posted on my Talk page, no, I do not think that the cover art on the First Edition copies The History of Middle-earth should determine the whether the numerals should be Arabic or Roman, but neither do I think the cover art on the most recent editions should determine that. On the contrary, I think the way the volumes are numbered is mere design choice by the publisher, and was not dictated by the author, and we should not be bound by changeable design choices by publishers. We should choose a citation format based on clarity and then use that format consistently. We already use Roman numerals for other things, most notably chapter numbering, so let's use Arabic numerals for volume numbers. That's my opinion. But I'm happy to have the final decision made by consensus. - Gradivus, 14:42, January 11, 2014 (UTC)

Citations for ReferencesEdit

I think I'm done with the Citations for References, for now. For further refinements I'd like to actually have copies of The History of Middle-earth (the different volumes of which seem to have widely different Table of Contents and headings formats), Unfinished Tales, and The Atlas of Middle-earth in front of me. - Gradivus, 15:55, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

It looks very good; kudos to Gradivus for all his efforts. I agree on this formatting. It can be included in one of our policies so that users may be aware of it.  Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 10:50, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

  • Thanks. We still need to iron out some internal consistencies on how and when to italicize the various parts of the references, especially words in section identifiers, like: [Vol. 9, Book 5, Second Phase:, Part Four, Chapter IV:, XII, and B:]. - Gradivus, 16:05, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

ItalicizationEdit

Different style guides have different methods for italicization. The only things they seem to completely agree on is that book names should be italicized and chapter names should be plain text in quotation marks. As for what to do with the rest, let's choose a standard by consensus. One possibility is to italicize everything except chapter names and section identifiers (e.g., Vol. 9, Book Three, Part Four, Chapter IV:, XII, and B:) that would look like this:

Another possibility (and simpler, and much easier to write) is to italicize everything except the chapter names. That would look like this:

A third possibility is to only italicize the main book titles that were published as separate volumes, and don't italicize anything else. That would look like this:

Or, perhaps a different alternative. Let's see if we can find a consensus. What does everyone think? - Gradivus, 15:18, January 11, 2014 (UTC)

Since you (DL) agree with the third choice, I've proposed that on the Talk:Citations for References page, and will effect the changes if no one objects within the next couple of days. - Gradivus, 19:04, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
Done. - Gradivus, 04:21, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

Detail of citationsEdit

The History of Middle-earthEdit

In Citations for References, for The History of Middle-earth, Vol. 5: The Lost Road and Other Writings, only Parts One, Two, and Three are listed. Apparently, those Parts may have several chapters each. If that's true, shouldn't they also be listed as citations? - Gradivus (Talk) 15:13, January 17, 2014 (UTC)

Family TreesEdit

I'll finish them as soon as I can. Thanks, DL.  Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 13:24, January 12, 2014 (UTC)

Admin attention needed to fix vandalismEdit

User:Yourdadsdad IS RANSACKING PAGES ON THIS WIKIA!!!!!!
New user User:Yourdadsdad apparently vandalized Orthanc, causing it to redirect to Blog:Happy PLace !!!!!!!! (which now contains some – but not all – of what was apparently formerly at Orthanc, and without admin tools I don't know how to fix either of them. He's also messed up The Hobbit the same way. The ransacked pages don't even seem to have any History left that I can use to restore them. - Gradivus, 20:52, January 14, 2014 (UTC)

15:12, 14 January 2014‎ Yourdadsdad (Talk | contribs)‎ . . (39 bytes) (+39)‎ . . (Yourdadsdad moved page Orthanc to Blog:Happy PLace !!!!!!!!)

  • Update: Looks like User:Robin Patterson is taking care of it. :) The vandal had turned the ransacked pages to Blog pages and there didn't seem to be any way to edit those. - Gradivus, 01:43, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

The Hobbit, post-vandalismEdit

Looks like we lost the formatting along with the history. Is it possible to restore the History along with all the past versions? - Gradivus, 03:45, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

Unfinished Tales in Citations for ReferencesEdit

Looks okay, by not sure about what the "chapter" (that should be put in quotations) is in some of the books I don't have. For instance, in Unfinished Tales, you have: "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn", and of Amroth King of Lórien. Why do the quotation marks stop after Celeborn? - Gradivus, 04:21, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

I've changed those, extending the quotation marks around the entire chapter name. - Gradivus (Talk) 17:24, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
Why did I do that, because "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" is the main chapter title shown by its capitalized appearance in the book, but that does not mean the rest should by deleted. Sorry the correction didn't great to you before you changed it but please don't 'extend' the quotation marks around the entire chapter name--DarkLantern (talk) 17:39, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn is the title of the chapter in the book. and of Amroth King of Lórien is merely an extension of what is written there not a subchapter. The History of Galadriel and Celeborn is capitalized in the contents and when you get to the chapter, it and it alone is displayed at the top. The same is true with all the others (ex: Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin & The Disaster of the Gladden Fields). I do not believe we should drop the extensions though as a matter of style, principle, and accuracy.--DarkLantern (talk) 06:45, January 16, 2014 (UTC)
I understand that the main part of the chapter (the capitalized part in the book) is just "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" and the rest is not capitalized. That just means you have a short form of the chapter and a long form of the chapter. You can use either the short form or the long form in the citation, but whatever you decide to use you must put quotation marks around all of it (the short form or the long form) or none of it. Otherwise it's not being cited properly and will appear to be bad form. - Gradivus (Talk) 18:50, January 16, 2014 (UTC)
Please don't delete my responses! If you disagree or have a different view then just TELL me! Very well then please give me an example of the short and long forms.--DarkLantern (talk) 19:04, January 16, 2014 (UTC)
Hmm... Now I see your (previously missing) responses, but I don't see my last response in which I said I didn't delete yours. That's weird. Anyway... Example of the short and long forms:
Short: Unfinished Tales, Part Two: The Second Age, IV: "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn", Appendices: Appendix A, The Silvan Elves and their Speech
Long: Unfinished Tales, Part Two: The Second Age, IV: "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, and of Amroth King of Lórien", Appendices: Appendix A, The Silvan Elves and their Speech
- Gradivus (Talk) 20:02, January 16, 2014 (UTC)
I prefer the long form.--DarkLantern (talk) 10:17, January 17, 2014 (UTC)
Good; I think that's the way they already are. - Gradivus (Talk) 13:29, January 17, 2014 (UTC)

The Children of HúrinEdit

Thanks for updating the citations for The Children of Húrin. I was wondering about that. I know it's published as a separate book (I ordered it a few days ago), but isn't it (and the version in Unfinished Tales) just an excerpt from The History of Middle Earth Vol. 3? Are there differences between the three versions? - Gradivus (Talk) 16:17, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

I will be finishing the list.--DarkLantern (talk) 10:17, January 17, 2014 (UTC)

Movie citations Edit

Movies are not like books, where a major title may be published in different volumes. Each movie should be cited separately. The format for citing those movies should be always just the actual title of the movie, italicized, followed by the year of release, in parentheses. So for instance, The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (2012). For consistency it would be good to have a little section showing the correct citations for the various Tolkien movies. I'd be glad to give a stab at it, later this evening. - Gradivus (Talk) 17:14, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

Good for you! Show me what you think it should look like.--DarkLantern (talk) 17:39, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
Good for our loyal readers! It should look pretty much like this:
The Hobbit (Animated, 1977)
The Lord of the Rings (Animated, 1978)
The Return of the King: A Story of the Hobbits (Animated, 1980)
The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (2001)
The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (2002)
The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (2003)
The Lord of the Rings: The Third Age (Video game, 2004) [And similarly, for other video games.]
Born of Hope (2009)
The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (2012)
The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug (2013)
The Hobbit: There and Back Again (2014)
- Gradivus (Talk) 18:16, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
Good, but without the The Lord of the Rings film trilogy and The Hobbit film trilogy before those for the Peter Jackson adaptations. Why not?--DarkLantern (talk) 18:21, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
Because a proper movie citation uses the exact official title of the movie. The Internet Movie Database (imdb.com) is a good site for checking official movie titles. If there are two movies with the same name, the year of release will differentiate between them. - Gradivus (Talk) 18:27, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
I guess I could live with that but some here already have that format.--DarkLantern (talk) 19:03, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I know. Right now we use a hodgepodge of different styles. If we are going to choose one of them that means we will have to change some of them. And we might as well choose a proper citation style as the standard. - Gradivus (Talk) 22:03, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
I agree with the above movie format but you better just show me the format for the video games and the online games.--DarkLantern (talk) 10:17, January 17, 2014 (UTC)
On second thought, I don't think we need citations for video games or online games – at all. Nor do we need to list what the listing of them should look like, since it's always the same: when talking about them, just italicize the titles and note that they are video games. Online games are ever-changing and don't need to be dated. - Gradivus (Talk) 13:27, January 17, 2014 (UTC)
The Lord of the Rings: The Third Age (Video game, 2004)
The Lord of the Rings Online

Unfinished Tales part summationsEdit

Sure, nothing wrong with summarizing the different chapters. As for linking to them before they actually exist – I'm not sure why we do that, but okay if it's policy. - Gradivus (Talk) 17:14, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

I do and did that in order to alert people or encourage people to fill in the red links on their own.--DarkLantern (talk) 17:39, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
That's what i kinda thought. - Gradivus (Talk) 17:52, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

On The History of Middle-earthEdit

You should have hyper-linked the individual volumes of the The History of Middle-earth I see why you didn't since you did so with The Book of Lost Tales, unless you're not done yet. We should clearing much of this stuff up by now.--DarkLantern (talk) 19:03, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

Done! - Gradivus (Talk) 22:03, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

AbsenceEdit

Hey DL. I'm only here to tell you that I won't be around the wiki for around five days. I am going out of town for a tour.  Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 10:34, January 17, 2014 (UTC)

Sauron remadeEdit

What do you think of this user's recent extensive revisions on the Sauron page? - Gradivus (Talk) 03:33, January 18, 2014 (UTC)

Welcome!Edit

How can strive of administrations on this wiki?:)please reply:)

Re: SuggestionsEdit

Yes, I will rename those right away. Thank you for notifying me.  Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 10:02,2/16/2014

Clean-up on GandalfEdit

The page is full of non-canon information, especially the Magical abilites section. The "Weak" and "Strong" headers should be removed in my opinion. In Tolkien Gateway, this section is brief and based solely on the books. Whereas on our article, it is a mixture of book, films and video games. The Video games sections should also be made brief and its headers removed. I think it would look better if his video game appearances are as brief as in Legolas' page.

I am willing to start cleaning-up the article, as long as you will give me permission to remove what I have mentioned above. Thanks.  Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 06:36,2/25/2014

Gradivus and I talked about it before but I can get your opinion done. I'll replace the Magical abilities section under the respective sections, either under the films or video games appearances. Can I remove the "Weak" and "Strong" headers though? I'll bulletize the abilities under those sections to make the page content index more organized. I can add the references later.  Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 12:17,2/25/2014

Quiz Edit

Hi, how do you make quizzes? I'm asking for my own wiki. Thanks.

RevengeLover (talk) 18:37, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

TemplatesEdit

I'll finish them as soon as I can. Thanks.  Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 01:06,3/18/2014

IssueEdit

Hey DarkLantern. There was an issue here in the wiki some weeks ago and a non-registered user discussed it with me privately. There are two things:

First, the merging of the pages Wargs and Wargs in Peter Jackson's films. The creator of the article Wargs in Peter Jackson's films removed the merging template that you placed, yes? And that template was removed by the same user. On that second time, I placed the merging template back on the article. Well, that user undid the template because she thought that if the two pages are merged, much of the content would be gone. It's about time that we merge these two pages.

Second, non-registered users are not notified when they are messaged. On that event that you warned the same user about the merging template, she did not receive that warning. It would be better to have more patience with non-registered users, except for the ones vandalizing the wiki on purpose, I guess.

In all honesty, I am not sure if I presented this issue well, but I hope you understand. This issue has long been delayed, some two weeks already. Thank you. Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 05:46,3/27/2014

User:82.45.32.185 has a private message for you concerning this issue. It would be great if you provide her an e-mail address where she can send the message. Thanks.  Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 10:41,4/4/2014

Yes, but it would be appreciated if you replied something about the issue. The anon asks for your e-mail address for the resolution of the conflict.  Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 02:17,4/6/2014

The message Edit

Hello DarkLantern,

I have just seen that you messaged me earlier today, but i wasn't aware that you had until DarkChylde informed me.

I prepared my message some days ago because my intention was to speak with you privately, with DarkChylde kindly passing on our responses to one another, leaving our addresses unknown to the other, but i have decided to give you my message on here instead. Because of this, the format in which my message is in may appear a little out of place, but it is still readable. Also, there are a few sentences that reference what was said by DarkChylde directly to you, but as i had not seen any of these words when preparing my e-mail they may also seem out of place, seeing as this message itself is now on the very page on which she spoke to you. I don't feel that i need to edit it because of these points, though, because i did take much of my time to try to portray my feelings and experience well, and as said, it is still readable. I also hope that the way in which everything has been typed out makes sense, as it was difficult enough to make certain things do as i wish as an e-mail, let alone copying and pasting it on another site.

I am only willing to give so much more time to this issue, so if you wish to reply to me please do so as soon as possible. Other than this, please read my words with an open mind and heart, as my only intention is to evaluate the reality of this incident and to resolve this between us so that peace can resume. 82.45.32.185 13:21, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

Hello DarkLantern,

My message to you is going to be very long, so you have been forewarned of this. In the unlikely event you do not know what I am going to speak about, it is about this block you enforced upon me and your misunderstandings about this.

First of all, I shall explain the basics of what happened in my own experience. Over a month ago now, I found a page named "Warg", but as I read through it I found only a couple or so sentences, which were nonsensical and incomplete. I decided I would like to recreate the page and so I edited it, adding on many paragraphs, making sure everything was perfect with no spelling mistakes, duplicated links and so forth, which took me at least a full hour, if not longer than that. By the end I had little energy left and many parts of my body was aching, but I was pleased with my work. But as I clicked "publish", I was informed that someone else had gone in and published their edit before I was able to. After reading the majority of the page they made, I decided that I didn't want to just delete all of my work, but equally so it would not have been just or fair to delete everything they had done. Because of this, I decided to copy all my work, create a new page, and edit it in some places to make it be in alignment with the new, more specific purpose, entitling it "Wargs in Peter Jackson's films". I don't believe it was long until it was suggested to be merged with the original page, and believing that would mean the majority of my work would be gone and wishing it could have been left as it was without it being in some way destroyed for a bit longer because of the effort I put into it, I undid the suggestion. It was added in another time, and so I undid it again, but decided that I would just leave it if I found that someone put it up again after that. I am aware that it was you who put it up for merging the first time, although I was informed it was DarkChylde who put it back up again.

Now that I believe the basic story of what happened on my end has been explained, I shall continue on to explain other factors to this-

Firstly, I think it is important to express that indeed my worries about what merging pages actually does did misguide me to the wrong conclusion, but please see that my actions were borne out of innocence and equally I had no information telling me of its true nature, or at least I never saw it. I was also unaware that things like this are usually discussed before any action. Another very important factor to this is that I never actually received any message, or as you named it, "warning". Whilst speaking to a member of 'wiki staff', I was told that the reason I never received any message at that time is because non-users do not receive notifications to such things, which I simply found to be almost unbelievable. This of course means I was never able to see what you said until speaking to this person, which at this time was days too late, and in fact I wasn't aware that the page on which you spoke to me had been created whatsoever until this same moment as well. My ask from you pertaining to this is that you take into account that non-users are easily unaware of people speaking to them for this reason. I doubt that 100% of them are going to be, seeing as some people are 'whiz-kids', but many are going to be and that is not their fault. I cannot answer to the solution to this as it is not my responsibility, and neither do I blame you for not knowing of this, but these are the facts and I can only tell them as they are.

The next thing I would like to speak about is the way you have spoken to me and about me, as every time I read anything you have said about this issue you always seem to resort to being rude. In the order I have read them, I shall explain to you how:

  •  What was said in the message I received when I was informed I had been blocked by you was worded in a discourteous, inappropriate and uncivil manner, which was not necessary for a situation which was so potentially trivial, and above all should not have included capitals, which signifies shouting. Even if I was fully aware of your intentions beforehand and knew exactly what I was doing, you should restrain yourself from shouting at people, especially so early on in a situation that was nowhere near the worst that could happen. The fact that this shouting was over the internet means little, as it still contains the same intention as physically shouting at someone within it and it does not show fairness, patience or thoughtfulness. And in all honesty, I do not understand why blocking me wasn't enough to subdue your feelings.


  • Barring the fact that I wasn't able to see it until days after the block had ended, the words in your 'warning' did not reflect upon what your intentions actually were. It was entitled "warning", yes, but you did not speak about blocking me if I undid the template again and it is extremely important to actually say what you mean directly when speaking about something so drastic; all that was said was a command to not undoing the template. It may have been clear to you what your intentions were and what you were really saying, but it isn't always going to be so clear to others if you don't just say it. If instead your intention was not to warn me that you would block me if I undid the template again and you believed that requesting me not to was a warning enough, then I do not believe this is good enough; you should at least give fair warning before giving out 'sentences'. I do not know exactly what your intentions were with this, but either way I do not believe that what you said was good enough to fairly encompass what you actually intended to do and I believe it truly was necessary to state your plan beforehand, in the event i did not "comply". Other than this, although I feel it is the least rude thing I have read from you pertaining to this, it was still abrupt, harsh, scolding, and impatient, and that most certainly is not the best attitude to have when requesting a person to not do something only the first time.


  • The last thing I am aware of that you have said is your response to DarkChylde after she had spoken to you. I am not aware of exactly what DarkChylde said to you, but she explained that she wasn't confident that her interpretations of my words were completely correct. For that reason I am open for you to say that what was said by DarkChylde is different from what I have, and will, say on here, but In the assumption that she did understand the majority or all of what I wished her to say, I must say that everything you said in your response did not align whatsoever with what was said and you were completely missing the point. It did not show openness to my side of the experience and the reason that can be found there, and just showed how utterly dismissive and uncaring you are being for anything that does not suit your purposes.
I have already explained how this isn't truly a warning, but as has also been explained, I wasn't able to see what you said until it was far too late because of the poor communication 'system'. You may feel you had your reasons at the time to take the actions that you did, but you do not seem to understand that this point is not about what happened or what you didn't know at that time, but rather about amending the present and the future. You also claimed that I "failed to comply", but having been given this information beforehand how does this make sense? These words imply that I made a conscious decision over this, when I clearly didn't and couldn't. I also don't understand why it seems that your lack of knowledge about this is more important than my lack of knowledge about this mysterious page of mine where people can speak to me. Other than the possibility that DarkChylde's words didn't portray what I intended, my only thought as to why you would say these dismissive words is that it was the only way you could find to rebuke my words. After explaining these points, I simply cannot understand how you came to the conclusion you did.


Overall, you need to be more patient than you have been with me and you need to see that although you may feel you have your reasons to feel, think, speak or act in a certain way, not everything is as you may have initially thought. You also need to remember that this is a public site which everyone can use, and that means that not everyone is going to be so aware of the 'rules' and how everything works, and what appears wrong to you can easily be innocent, and so you need to apply this knowledge to your urges before acting upon them because injustices can easily occur if you do not. I do not claim that you should not take some kind of action if someone has deleted all the content of a page or has exchanged a title for something rude, as has been done before, but this incident is hardly as dreadful as they. A person with the amount of power you possess should not behave so thoughtlessly and unforgivingly.

I have been pursuing this issue for over a month now, largely not out of my own choice, and I feel that throughout that time I have been open, fair and respectable, and although my knowledge has grown I have not been met with anything that has challenged my beliefs about this. I understand you will have your own experience with this, but this does not mean that my experience is not valid and it does not deserve to be thrown away just because you may not wish to hear it. My requests for the outcome of this is that you take into account that non-users are easily unaware of any communication they have been sent when an issue arises, that you realise you have behaved and spoken in an impatient and unprofessional manner, you truly listen to my side of the experience, and perhaps even apologise for certain issues I have raised in this e-mail. I do not believe this is too much to ask.

I know this is an extremely long e-mail, but I saw little point in not explaining everything I thought important in full detail. I hope very much that you can understand my words and my point of view, and I only ask that you show me that you are reasonable and thoughtful.

LEGO Hobbit QuizEdit

Hey, DarkLantern! We're making a fun little Hobbit quiz where people can actually be entered into a sweepstakes to win Hobbit-related things. I hope it's alright that we host the quiz on this wikia since it is a Tolkien hub! I think the quiz will be fun, so I hope you enjoy it :) Grace @Wikia (profile)•(talk) 17:44, April 7, 2014 (UTC)

Conflict & Merging PagesEdit

I think the conflict will end if the pages Wargs and Wargs in Peter Jackson's films are merged without removing contents from the latter page. She made it clear to me that she has put a lot of effort in that page, and she worries about the merging. Another thing would be more patient to anons because they do not get notified when messaged. Other than that, I am not sure.

Speaking of merging pages, I've been meaning to ask you about the rules like: a.) How many days will it take for the pages to be merged? b.) Who can merge the pages?, and so forth. I am planning to merge the pages Glorfindel and Glorfindel of Gondolin. If you can see, the Glorfindel (of Rivendell) page lacks the Second Age part. The reincarnation of Glorfindel issue is already concluded, and the Second Age is the part where the pages connect to each other. For example, Glorfindel was send back to Middle-earth sometime around SA 1600.  Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 03:10,4/8/2014

I was thinking of copying the Glorfindel of Gondolin content to the Glorfindel of Rivendell since that one is more organized and complete. Between the First Age and Third Age sections, I will add the Second Age wherein it was stated that in the "History of Middle-earth" that Glorfindel might have been sent back to Middle-earth sometime in the SA 1600 with the Blue Wizards. Stuff like that. That would connect the reincarnation of Glorfindel and his role in Middle-earth. References will be added, of course. Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 05:13,4/8/2014

Welcome MessageEdit

Which welcome message are you talking about? If the Welcome-message-user, then yes, I know how to edit that. (Welcome-message-anon for the other contributors) I tried once but it doesn't seem to be automatically sent to the new users. The Wikia message is what welcomes them rather than that. If we want to use it, we can contact someone to fix it. There is also the Welc1 template that some users use.  Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 06:57,4/8/2014

Maybe LOTR wiki's automatic message is not working properly, or there are codes needed in the MediaWiki. Should I ask assistance from the Community Central about this? It would eb better if our wiki has automatic messages from the admins rather than the Wiki staff.  Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 07:09,4/8/2014
I think I fixed it already. I experimented a little (See User talk:Night Fury) and the welcome message there. I have made some slight edits on the message, but it is basically the same. The (Happy editing, DaNASCAT @Wikia (help forum | blog) thing was replaced by an admin's signature and talk page. Whoever is the most recent admin in the wiki, their names are placed in the message. What do you think? Tell me if there are some things to be removed or added in the message. Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 11:17,4/8/2014

InfoboxesEdit

Which infobox should we use for the members of the House of Dol Amoth? Imrazôr  has the Infobox Person Men Dúnedain, and Adrahil II has the simple Infobox Character. Finduilas of Dol Amroth has the Dunedain infobox while her brother Imrahil has the Men of Gondor.  Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 07:53,4/11/2014

Yes, I think so.  Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 11:41,4/11/2014

AffiliatesEdit

Hey can Reign CW Wiki affiliate with this wiki? Thanks and call me TAD.

TheAuthenticDiaries (talk) 16:57, April 18, 2014 (UTC)TheAuthenticDiariesTheAuthenticDiaries (talk) 16:57, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

Shadow of Mordor Event OpportunityEdit

Greetings!

I'm Jorge from Wikia's Community Development team. Thanks to our partnership with Monolith, we've got an upcoming opportunity with Shadow of Mordor I thought you might be interested. Some time in mid-may, we'll be doing a virtual event with some Monolith folks and we would love to invite you to participate.

It should only take a couple of hours over a few days and we can work with your schedule. During the event, you'll be able to check out some behind-the-scenes content related to Shadow of Mordor, and we'd love to have some experts attend the event. If this sounds like something you're interested in, let me know via email (jorge@wikia-inc.com) and I'll add you to our list and get in touch with more information as soon as it's available!

All the best, Jorge @Wikia(profile)•(talk) 21:46, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

Hey DarkLantern, just a poke in case you missed this message. Thanks. Jorge @Wikia(profile)•(talk) 16:33, May 19, 2014 (UTC)

Re: YT and TemplateEdit

Sure, I can add the references. Should it be under the year table or on top? And for the Half-elven infobox, I am not very sure of the color scheme. Perhaps something close to blue or purple? We've had too many green infoboxes and might cause confusion to others. Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 05:00,4/22/2014

Reference PopupsEdit

I experimented a little on the reference formats and made the reference pop up upon hovering the mouse over the citation. Example: Glorfindelref_zps1d62d395.png
If you want to keep this kind of format, let me know. I can revert the edit quickly anyway. Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 06:32,4/22/2014

Chapter IndexEdit

Will it be alright to add chapter indexes in each chapter? I am planning to start improving the Silmarillion chapters next. Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 02:57,4/26/2014

Reporting to the "Over-Admin" Edit

Hello DarkLantern - What are any long-term of large tasks on this WIki that must yet be completed? There's not exactly a page with a to-do list here somewhere, is there?  Tar-Akhorahil (write message) 22:56, April 28, 2014 (UTC)

More family treesEdit

Sure. I can start some time tomorrow. Please give me the list of which family tree should be done. Thanks.  Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 16:03,4/30/2014

  1. Tooks ==Line of the Tooks===
  2. Baggins ==Line of the Baggins==
  3. Sackville-Baggins ==Line of the Sackville-Baggins==
  4. Boffin ==Line of the Boffins==
  5. Bolgers ==Line of the Bolgers==
  6. Cottons ==Line of the Cottons==
To name a few. May require research.--DarkLantern (talk) 16:31, April 30, 2014 (UTC)

New Locations TemplateEdit

Rivendell2
Rivendell
Background Information
Type City
Location Eastern Eriador
Realms
Capital
Founded/Built
Ruler
Other Information
Summary Known for harbors and havens
Other names
Inhabitants Elves
Spoken Languages
Lifespan Second Age - Fourth Age

I made a new location template as requested. Tell me if there are things to be added/removed. I am not sure about the color scheme though. Here's an example. You can remove the example infobox later to save the space of your talk page. Thanks.

It's fixed. Sorry for the inconvenience. Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 10:42,5/12/2014
I am still working on the [[File:|250px]] problem, and it may take a while to be fixed. The codes I tried to enter did not match the template. Please wait until I figure it out. Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 03:09,5/18/2014

What about this game?Edit

Do you know about the upcoming game, Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor? It's LOTR-themed, but idk if info about the characters should be placed on this wiki. What do you think? New Seeker (talk) 02:40, May 20, 2014 (UTC)

Wiki LayoutEdit

Since the Family Lineage sections are canon, I think they should go on top of the 'Portrayal in adaptations' sections; anything canon should be above that section. However, since navigation templates like those in Aragorn II Elessar's page are numerous, I think they should stay on the bottom of the page. The article will look more organized that way. Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 10:38,5/21/2014

Hello i have saw the Movie,he was Great and fantastic

Trudi Canavan Wiki Edit

Hi :)

I'm Magicaid, an editor in Trudi Canavan Wiki. We wanted to affiliate with this wiki. Would you like this to happen? If yes, is there a particular person who I have to ask (if it isn't you, I wasn't really sure who I should ask) or can you alone take this decision?

We would be putting your wiki's button/wordmark in our main page if you agree

Thanks

--Magicaid (talk) 04:00, May 29, 2014 (UTC)

can you do something about Hpaul1234's vandalism. he created a page called "My c*ck". please delete it and punish him or something. tnxBossGSCS (talk) 08:23, June 8, 2014 (UTC)

Army NumbersEdit

Don't you think we should do something about the constant editing of the army strength in the battle pages? It seems to me editors are inserting random numbers. One had removed the Fact template that I added. Darkchylde (talkcontribs) 10:52,6/24/2014

Hi DarkLantern!

My name is Ariana- I'm on the Community team over here at Wikia. I'm reaching out today to see if it's okay if we set up a "Parent Page" on the LOTR Wiki. Also, if you are okay with it, do you and the other admins have any interest in helping us fill it out?

Here is a Parent Page example from The Hunger Games Wiki to give you an idea of what the page entails. Essentially, it's a guide for parents about the age range for different wikis.

Let me know if you have any questions! We are planning to start setting up the pages over the next week or so. Thanks so much!

Best, Asnow89 @@Wikia (profile)•(talk) 23:13, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

Re: What NOT to doEdit

Oh. Sorry about that. I just thought it was lame that the template linked to a page that does not exist. I'd look into doing something about that if I were you. ~ Dan's Friend (talk) 13:11, July 30, 2014 (UTC)

Parent PageEdit

Hi DarkLantern!

My name is Scott, and I'm part of the Community team with Wikia. I'm reaching out today to see if it's alright if we set up an informative "Parent Page" here on the LOTR Wiki. If so, would you and/or the other admins have any interest in helping us fill it out, since you know the subject far better than we do?

Here is a Parent Page example from The Harry Potter Wiki to give you an idea of what the page entails. Essentially, it's a guide for parents about the age range for different wikias.

Let me know if you have any questions! We are planning to start setting up the pages over the next week or so. Thank you for your time!

Siggy4.png @@Wikia (profile)•(talk) 12:49, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

Shadow of Mordor versus tournamentEdit

Hi DarkLantern! I'm Mark, from Wikia's Community Development Team.

I'm reaching out to see if your community would like to be a part of a versus tournament we're hosting on the Shadow of Mordor wikia. It would go live in September, and we would be pitting the Witch-king of Angmar against Talion from Shadow of Mordor. The voting would live in a blog on Shadow of Mordor and we would post a button on the Witch-king of Angmar's page here encouraging your community to vote for them. On the voting blog we would link back to your wikia, and we'll be promoting the tournament around Wikia. If your community would like to be a part of the tournament, which would include the button on the Witch-king of Angmar's page as well as a link back to your community from the voting blog, please let me know by 8/29.

Thank you! Mark@Wikia (talk) 21:25, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

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