Talk: Tauriel

Where do we put this?

"Tauriel does not enter into a romantic relationship with the character Legolas". (Source: http://www.slashfilm.com/get-the-first-peek-at-evangeline-lilly-as-elven-warrior-tauriel-in-the-hobbit/)
- *MsIsamisa (talk) 14:45, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

In "Behind the Scenes" or nowhere. It's just a rumor about what will not happen in a movie. - Gradivus, 15:04, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the answering, but it's not a rumour,  that statement was putted by PJ's official facebook in 2011. Here's his complete statement: 

http://badassdigest.com/2011/06/20/the-hobbit-gets-hotter-with-casting-of-evangeline-lilly-and-dame-edna/

*MsIsamisa (talk) 15:46, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

And, as it turns out, there is some romantic tension between them after all, although no actual romance. - Gradivus, 22:36, December 19, 2013 (UTC)

Whether Legolas is a lord

Discussion of whether Legolas is a lord or the son of a king (or both) is a bit out of place for the Tauriel page. This page is all about the movie character, and the movie doesn't go into any of that, so it's irrelevant here. There might be a place for it on the Legolas page, however. - Gradivus, 00:56, December 20, 2013 (UTC)

• The irrellevance is that his father IS A KING. The movie does not have to go into something to make background information pertanent. The movies reference a ton of background information. It references the Valar. To say the movies do not go into detail about who they are does not invalidate their existance. As such the REASON Thranduil told her their is no hope is not because he IS a King but rather that she is a Silvan Elf. There is a difference of social class and not a question of royalty. The easiest way to point this out is to make clear the origins of Oropher, Thranduil's father. Had she been a Sindarin elf there could be a romance. Silvan elves were primitive and savage compared to the Elves who flourished within the Girdle of Melian. Lord Glorfindel of the Firstborn (talk) 14:08, December 20, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not objecting to what you wrote, only where and how you are presenting it. Canon information about the character (e.g., Thranduil) should be put at the appropriate place on the Thranduil page, as long as it comprises facts directly from the books, with a source that can be cited if necessary. It does not belong in a "spoilers" section that is specifically talking about a character in the movie. Now if you have a published article, for instance comments made in an interview by Peter Jackson, relating to the reasoning behind Thranduil's warning to Tauriel in the movie, then you are free to add that to a "background" section (after the plot narrative) on the Tauriel page, citing the interview or whatever authoritative published source it comes from. However, this Wikia has rules against putting your own personal opinions, speculation, theories or analysis on the main article pages (similar to the "No Original Research" rule in Wikipedia). There is a place for putting one's own opinion, theories or analysis, but they are not on the main pages. They should go either on the "Talk" pages of the relevant articles, or in a blog post, or in one of the pages set aside for discussion. - Gradivus, 17:08, December 20, 2013 (UTC)

I think putting your reasoning onto the Talk page about why Thranduil was disallowing it, and also (separately) why you think an elf-dwarf romance is very non-canon, would be VERY GOOD. And I essentially agree with what you're saying. It just belongs on the Talk page, that's all. Talking about the content is part of what the Talk page is for. - Gradivus, 17:42, December 20, 2013 (UTC)

Ok I get your reasoning. So at the core, of why I changed it, is the reason that he gave the warning. It is clear Thranduil is a King. It is clear that Thranduil tells Tauriel there is no hope for a romance. It is clear that she is a Silvan elf. It is clear Legolas is Sindarin Highborn. What my discrepancy was, to begin with, the reason. As such I suggest we shorten the narrative to:

"He mentions then that Legolas, his son, has grown fond of her but that she should not give him hope, because she is a common Silvan (woodland) elf."

An experienced Tolkiendil can explain this by drawing the conclusion that Silvan elves were Moriquendi, Elves of Darkness, a low class not seen as equals to the Lathrim, Elves of the Girdle. The Silvan elves were barely distinguishable from the Avari, the most primitive of Elves. The Sindar were a ruling elite social class of the Teleri while the Silvan were at the opposite end.:It is as much of an assumption that the reason is he is son of a King, as is the class difference I pointed out. My assertion, however, is based on Tolkien lore to make an educated assumption rather than a jumped conclusion that it is because Legolas is the song of a King. Lord Glorfindel of the Firstborn (talk) 15:28, December 23, 2013 (UTC)

The problem with shortening the narrative as you say, is that it begs the question "So what if she is a woodland elf – aren't they all?" And what distinguishes a "common" elf from another kind?

     The problem with trying to make an explanation based on Tolkien mythology while discussing the film, is that the entire incident was made up from whole cloth for the film, was not envisioned by Tolkien, and the question of whom Thranduil's son might marry was never addressed by Tolkien. Furthermore, the film specifically gives the other half of that reason ("because she is a common woodland elf…") as "...and Legolas is the son of a king." Peter Jackson changed, simplified, and/or made up a lot of "facts" from the Tolkien version in making the movie, and while trying to rationalize the changes as you are doing to try to make them consistent with "pure" Tolkien mythology is interesting, it doesn't belong in the narrative of the movie. For that, we must report just the plain version of what happened and/or was actually stated in the film, i.e., because Legolas was the son of a king and she was a commoner (that's the stated reason from the film). As we've discussed, on the main pages we have to stick to straight "reporting" of the facts including (1) what Tolkien actually wrote; (2) what actually happened in the films; and (3) verifiable published material about the first two. We can't put users' opinions, musings, analysis, and theories.

     If you want to include musings and theories of that type, that's really fandom discussion, and per LOTR:Current policies that's not allowed in the main pages. However, we have a special area for that, the LOTR Fanon wiki. You could certainly post an entire page about "Reconciliation between Tolkien and Peter Jackson versions" if you like, and I think you could include a link to it at the end of the "Portrayal in adaptations" section. That's really the more appropriate area, I think, and you could help by adding that type of article to it!

     Finally, when you edit pages can you please use the "Source" Instead of the "Visual" tab? Because when you use "Visual" mode you end up leaving long masses of code detritus. Thanks. - Gradivus, 18:17, December 23, 2013 (UTC)

Gradivus is wrong. He has quoted the movie incorrectly. Tauriel states that she does not think Thranduil will allow Legolas to "pledge herself to a lowly Silvan elf." There is no mention of him being a King. We know he is a King but it is an incorrect assumption that this is the reasoning. The movie states that they cannot be together because she is a lowly silvan elf. "So what if she is a woodland elf – aren't they all?" Well no they are not. Legolas and Thranduil are Sindarin of Doriath. Legolas even states that Thorin's sword is made by his kin of Gondolin, meaning he is not of the lowly race of Silvan elf. Even if the movie didn't say it, Tolkien states that Oropher and Thranduil fled Gondolin and became Lords of the Silvan(woodland) elves.